I’d Rather Be Horseshoe Pitching

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Debby Michaud: It's taken me all over the world. It changed my life. Um, I've been to South Africa, I’ve been to Canada, I've been to almost all of the states because I pitched horseshoes in so many places, it's amazing. And I never would have done that. Um, we probably would have camped in New England campgrounds and that would've been it, you know, but I think it's changed, and broadened, our lives.

[00:00:32] Katya Rucker: Welcome to I'd Rather Be Horseshoe Pitching, episode 12 of the I'd Rather Be podcast. I'm your host, Katya Rucker. First, a quick heads up that this is the final episode of Season 1 of the podcast. But, stay tuned in the coming weeks for a sneak peak into Season 2, which launches May 3rd. I've already been talking to new and prospective guests who love fly fishing, yoga and reading [00:01:00] tarot cards.

[00:01:01] So it's shaping up to be another fun season about the many passions out there to discover. Thank you so much for listening to the show, believing in the show, and for spreading the word to help it grow. If you have any ideas for topics, potential guests, or any other feedback that can help me make season 2 even better, you can get in touch via the contact form at idratherbepodcast.com.

[00:01:28] And now back to the [00:01:30] sport of horseshoe pitching. The voice you heard at the start of this episode was Debby Michaud, a two-time world champion horseshoe pitcher who began her pitching career in 1970, at a time women were not really very welcome in the sport. She's now the regional director for the National Horseshoe Pitchers Association in New England. And as someone who has made the sport a part of her life for over 50 years, this is how she described the essence of horseshoe pitching to [00:02:00] me. 

[00:02:00] Debby Michaud: It’s a very good sport for kids who need to learn to concentrate, for adults that have trouble focusing. Um, you have to do the same exact thing every time, if you're excited, if you're sad, if you're depressed, you're way ahead, you're way behind. You have to do the same thing every time. You can't throw a ball faster. You can't hold back. You have to do the exact same thing. So. it's a real good sport for learning to concentrate [00:02:30] and focus. 

[00:02:30] Katya Rucker: Debby is talking about the consistency of your throw or your pitch when she says you have to do the exact same thing every time. There are two general styles of pitches, the flip and the turn, which we'll get into a little later in the episode, because now, I want to introduce another devoted horseshoe pitcher, Tammy Gilbert, who is based on the other side of the United States in Oregon. Here's Tammy telling me how she first got into the [00:03:00] sport.

[00:03:00] Tammy Gilbert: Well, my husband and his brother decided to go enter this -- they thought it was like a picnic-style horseshoe tournament -- over in Lebanon. And when they got over there, there was actually, uh, professionals there. So they got into it, playing themselves. And the next thing I know every weekend, my husband was playing at a different tournament all over Oregon.

[00:03:24] So, it was either join him or stay at home. And of course I joined him because it was [00:03:30] very lonely on the weekends. [laughs]

[00:03:32] Katya Rucker: And now, fast forward to the 2021 horseshoe pitching world tournament, which took place in Winnemucca, Nevada. Tammy competed in the highest women's division and finished 13th, making her the 13th best female horseshoe pitcher in the world that year.

[00:03:48] She was no longer tagging along with her husband and son on the weekends. In fact, she's now the best pitcher of all of them. So, what made her love the game?  

[00:03:58] Tammy Gilbert: Um, I think that [00:04:00] what I really really loved, I mean, I'm a very competitive person. That's one aspect. But when I first started it, it was something that my whole family could do. And I have another boy also. Um, when he was younger, he played, so we had all four of us go into these tournaments and it was a family function and we just, we loved it cause it kept our family together. 

[00:04:22] Katya Rucker: Horseshoe pitching is an ideal sport for the whole family, because it isn't too physically demanding. And that makes it accessible to the full range [00:04:30] of ages, from young children to athletes who play into their eighties and nineties. All you need to be able to do is aim a three-pound horseshoe at a stake in the ground, and the distance you have to throw the shoe ranges depending on your age. So that's 20 feet away for kids under age, 12, 30 feet away for women, and 40 feet away for men. Here's Tammy describing the object of the game to me.

[00:04:56] Tammy Gilbert: So you play with a pair of horseshoes, you get two. And [00:05:00] you throw to one end. The object is to get the most amount of points there. The highest score you can get is what's called the two ringer six, and that means you land two perfect shoes on the stake, around the stake.

[00:05:15] Um, and then once you, whoever you shoot against, you'll get a turn to shoot. The next person will go to shoot. Whoever scores the most points gets to go and shoot back down to the other side and the other person follows. [00:05:30] So it's a walking game. 

[00:05:32] Katya Rucker: A game of horseshoes can either be played with cancellation scoring or count all scoring. In either version, you get three points for every ringer and a ringer is when your shoe encircles the stake, and you get one point if your shoe lands within six inches of the stake or leans against the stake. Count-all scoring just means that each player gets points for their shoes, regardless of where their opponent chooses. Cancellation scoring is all [00:06:00] about doing marginally better than your opponent. So you still get three points for a ringer, but zero points if your opponent also gets a ringer. The two ringers cancel one another out. And if either players' shoe lands within six inches of the stake, only the player with the closer shoe gets the point. 

[00:06:19] Tammy Gilbert: We actually have a tool that you can use, calipers, that measure the distance from the stake to the shoe. And if they do, if you are tied, then you can [00:06:30] agree, no points will be issued, um, or whoever is closer will get it. And it can come down to just, just a little bit and you can get that point. 

[00:06:43] Katya Rucker: Points matter when it comes to winning and losing, but in horseshoe pitching, you're always competing against yourself and working on improving your ringer percentage, or your consistency with getting your shoes to land on the stake in a given game.

[00:06:58] Since Debby, our New England- [00:07:00] based guest, has been pitching horseshoes for 50 years and counting, I wanted her perspective on what matters more to high-level competitors: winning or that ringer percentage. 

It seems like you're competing against yourself and your percentage. And also you need to beat someone, and sometimes your percentage can go up, you have your best, but you actually lose right, due to the score?

[00:07:21] So how would you characterize, you know, do you feel like it's truly 50-50, it's you against yourself and the other person, or is it [00:07:30] more about --

[00:07:31] Debby Michaud: I think that changes for the person. The people who are not as good and who have been pitching for a long time, but pitch at 20, 30, 40% are all about winning. They win their games. And if you ask them how they did, they'll say I won three and lost one.

[00:07:49] They won't say, “I pitched 35%.” They will tell you what they won, but as they get better, as people get better, when you ask them how they did, they'll say, “I [00:08:00] pitched my average. I pitched 70%. I pitched 80%.” And you don't even know if they won or lost, and they might not even remember themselves because it is for the better player, it is you against your best. You're trying to do your best, but for the more recreational player, I think it's about winning. 

[00:08:21] Katya Rucker: Debby tells me she's currently pitching a 43% average, but is trying to claw her way back and is on an upward trajectory. [00:08:30] When she won her second world title in 1985, she pitched 81% ringers, and getting into the eighties, meaning your shoe is landing on that stake at least four out of every five throws, is approaching the pinnacle in horseshoe pitching skill. Based on what I could find in tournament results online, it's extremely rare for any pitcher to achieve above a 90% in a game and almost unheard of to pitch a perfect 100%, though it has happened [00:09:00] from time to time. Circling back to Tammy, here's what she shared with me when I asked about her ringer percentage.

[00:09:07] Tammy Gilbert: Prior to the pandemic, I was at 68%, which is a pretty high percentage in Oregon. Um, and just because of the pandemic and not being able to get out to some of the tournaments, because we couldn't, I actually dropped 8%. So, you can go really high really quick, and you can go really low really quick, [00:09:30] depending on, uh, you know, different scenarios.

[00:09:31] Katya Rucker: And this is where Tammy is setting her sights for the future. 

[00:09:37] Tammy Gilbert: My personal goal, um, is to be at least 10 and under in the world for women. Um, this last world’s, um, I competed, I went in as number 16, I got up to number 13, so I want to get to be at least the top 10 women in the world is where I want to be, which, I'm going to have [00:10:00] to get my percentage up at least to mid seventies, high eighties.

[00:10:04] Katya Rucker: Hm. Wow. Okay. So that's the difference between number 13 and number eight or seven, you're saying like, is it's really that big of a jump? 

[00:10:14] Tammy Gilbert: It is. It's a real big jump, yes.

[00:10:15] Katya Rucker: So it really takes constant practice and a love of both competition and the game itself to work your way up to the levels Tammy and Debby have achieved.

[00:10:27] And what really struck me about horseshoe pitching is just [00:10:30] how much time you can commit to it, since it isn't a sport that takes much of a toll on your body even if you play every single day. 

[00:10:37] Tammy Gilbert: We'll play around every night during, um, come April when the weather gets nicer. Um, we do have pits in our own backyard, so we can go and throw some shoes. And we usually, uh, throw a game of 40 against each other -- 40 shoes -- and, uh, do a small round robin with me, my son, and my husband. Um, and then once [00:11:00] April hits, we’re actually gone every weekend until Labor Day. We'll travel all over Oregon to different tournaments. Um, we've even gone as far as, uh, traveling out to Idaho and Washington to get different tournaments under our belts.

[00:11:16] Katya Rucker: And this year, the horseshoe pitching world tournament is going to be in Monroe, Louisiana, running from July 11th through 23rd. When Debby won the women's championship titles in [00:11:30] 1977 and 1985, it was an era when the professional sports world was still being challenged regularly to grant equal rights to female athletes. Competitive sports options were severely limited for school-age girls in the fifties and sixties, much to Debby's frustration.

[00:11:48] And she eventually came upon horseshoe pitching somewhat by chance. A neighbor mentioned an opening in a local horseshoe league, and Debby was eager for an opportunity to do something active out of the house after just having [00:12:00] had her second child. 

[00:12:01] Debby Michaud: It was a very different time. It was 1970. It was before Women's Lib. And as a child, as a young girl, I could not compete in any sport because they were not, we were not allowed. And I know that's pretty hard to fathom for young women nowadays, but we literally -- I played sandlot baseball with all the guys, and then I was not allowed to play in little league baseball.

[00:12:25] And the only thing we had was one track meet a year, and [00:12:30] intramural sports and I was always competitive and athletic. So, when this horseshoe thing came along, and I just jumped in, again, just to get out of the house, but I realized how competitive it could be. And also it wasn't expensive, which we didn't have much money at the time, so that worked, and I could practice in my yard. I could have my kids taking their naps, leave their windows open, and pitch right outside their windows.

[00:12:57] Katya Rucker: Title IX [00:13:00] was the gender equity law that banned discrimination by gender in education programs. And in 1972, which was the year that Title IX passed, female athletes received only 2% of college athletic budgets.

[00:13:14] Compliance with title IX didn't become mandatory until 1978, so in Debby's early days of becoming a highly competitive horseshoe pitcher, she faced a number of barriers simply because she was a woman. 

[00:13:28] Debby Michaud: Back in the day, women were only [00:13:30] allowed to pitch against women. And because of that and because I was, I got pretty good pretty quickly. Um, I outclassed them, and it wasn't fun for them or for me. And so they had handicapped tournaments all the time, but one of the men suggested that I play with them, which was huge, huge for that time. And so they signed me up with the men's top class in an indoor tournament in the winter, which may be the [00:14:00] first time a woman has ever done that, I don't know. And one of the men almost walked out. He was not going to pitch a woman. But we did, and we got through it, and it was fine. And I beat him. The man that suggested it, I beat him, and the man who almost walked out, I beat him. 

[00:14:22] Katya Rucker: I think it would shock most people if something like this were to happen today. But Debby reminded me that, especially when it came to sports, there was still a [00:14:30] pretty pervasive societal perception that for women, physical activities were purely for recreation and health rather than competition or the prospect of becoming elite athletes.

[00:14:41] Debby Michaud: Well, I think that part of it -- they don't didn't know that women could be competitive. They didn't think women should be competitive. And my joke with them was, “Am I a woman or am I a horseshoe pitcher?” And I would yell that across the courts occasionally. And, uh, [00:15:00] they did accept me as a horseshoe pitcher. And that was huge. That was a big step. For them and for me. 

[00:15:06] Katya Rucker: So your skill really had to carry you in that case, the, just the ability to hold your own with them? 

[00:15:14] Debby Michaud: Yes. Yes. They wouldn't have let me in if I wasn't at their level, um, so I was already at their level, but I wasn't ever able to actually pitch -- very rarely able to pitch against other people with similar ability. [00:15:30] So that was much more exciting. 

[00:15:32] Katya Rucker: Horseshoe pitching continues to be a male-dominated sport across the country. So Tammy regularly competes against men as well as against kids, or juniors, who have comparable percentages to her. She's always willing to play against men with a higher percentage than her and take those losses to become a better player. But at Oregon's annual state tournament, there are rarely women at her level.  

[00:15:55] Tammy Gilbert: The last few years, I've actually just wanted outright. I've had to play against [00:16:00] men, but there was no other woman to compete with. So on that aspect, it kinda is hard because I don't feel -- I feel like I deserve it because I've worked hard all year, but not really because I want to have somebody there.  I want to have another woman that's just as good as I am to compete against. 

[00:16:19] Katya Rucker: The National Horseshoe Pitchers Association, estimates that around 15 million Americans pitch horseshoes recreationally, but only about a thousand people compete in the world tournament [00:16:30] every year. Most are from the United States and Canada.

[00:16:32] Versions of the game date back 2,000 years to the Roman empire, when discus throwing was one of the first ever Olympic sports. Soldiers didn't have access to discusses, but they had an abundance of discarded horseshoes. So that's what they played with. And Debby considers modern horseshoe pitching to be one of several variations of precision sports, where the goal is to get some kind of projectile to land in a [00:17:00] very specific place.

[00:17:01] Debby Michaud: And we were trying to get at a couple of different points, trying to get precision games as a group into the Olympics, because then that would encompass many countries, and that has not worked. One of the games however at that time was curling, and curling has taken off. 

[00:17:18] Katya Rucker: Right. 

[00:17:01] Debby Michaud: Yeah, by itself. So, you know, they don't need us anymore and we still need them, but they don’t need us.

[00:17:26] Katya Rucker: A sport needs at least 17 countries to demonstrate [00:17:30] interest in it for it to have a chance of becoming an Olympic sport, and unfortunately, horseshoe pitching just hasn't reached that level of international popularity yet. But as Debby mentioned earlier, it's an easy game to pick up without spending much money or even without having access to an official horseshoe pitching court.

[00:17:47] Debby Michaud: After my first tournament that I lost every game, I didn't even have a pair of horseshoes at that point. So I went out and bought a pair of horseshoes, and we didn't have much money, so my husband was at the dump and saw a lead pipe. [00:18:00] And he brought the lead pipe home and we threw it in the ground, and that was my stake, and I started to practice in the yard. 

[00:18:08] Katya Rucker: As Debby mentioned earlier, the key to becoming a respectable horseshoe pitcher is consistency. You have to discover the pitch that is right for you, and then practice it over and over to start achieving a decent ringer percentage. You can either flip your shoe top over end, or turn your shoe so it spins sideways. But within those categories, there are many techniques to [00:18:30] try. For example, you could do a double flip or a backhanded flip, and you could do a reverse turn, a one and a quarter turn or a one and three quarters turn. Horseshoe pitching seemed like the opposite of baseball, where a pitcher might throw a curveball and a slider to the same batter. So I asked Tammy how horseshoe pitchers decide which pitch they're going to use. 

[00:18:52] Tammy Gilbert: It's more by personal preference because like, I'm a flipper. I throw it with one flip over. [00:19:00] My husband and son, they turn their shoes where their shoes go this way, going into the stake. We've had all kinds of different styles out there. I think it really is how you learn, how you pick up, and how your body is comfortable with the motion. And that's usually how you get your technique. 

[00:19:18] Katya Rucker: And the horseshoes themselves are very distinct from the horseshoes horses wear. They're bigger and shaped like the letter U, but with inward facing hooks on each end. [00:19:30] The opening is three and a half inches wide, so the pitching technique comes down to making sure that opening is facing toward the stake so the shoe will encircle the stake when it comes to rest. I was surprised at the variety of shoes manufactured for the game. There are 130 different brands of horseshoes sanctioned for competition by the National Horseshoe Pitchers Association, and selecting the right shoe is closely linked to a player's preferred pitching technique.

[00:19:59] Tammy Gilbert: Once I [00:20:00] figured out that I flip my shoes instead of turn my shoes when I pitch the horseshoes, um, I started out with Mustangs, which was an easy flip shoe. They're heavier on the ends. So it just makes your shoe automatically flip. And then a few years back, my son had won a pair of Snyder's Easy Flips, and I tried them and I liked them a little bit better. So I switched over and I was a little bit more accurate with those. 

[00:20:26] Katya Rucker: Debby is one of the only horseshoe pitchers to win two [00:20:30] world tournaments with completely different pitches, a flip in her first and a turn in her second. I asked what made her decide to change her pitch after she had already reached such an advanced level of play.

[00:20:43] Debby Michaud: If you think about it, the margin of error with a flip is very small because it's a three and a half each area. You have to get it there. With a turn, you have a much greater chance of getting a ringer. Um, so a lot of people in this area [00:21:00] start with a flip and will stick with it forever. And I was sure that I would stick with a flip forever because it was easy and I did well with it, and I actually won a world tournament with it.

[00:21:12] But, my motivation was sort of sinking. And in one world tournament, I lost a lot of ringers because of bad conditions. It rained a lot and it was outside. So I said, you know, I just don't feel like pitching anymore. I need new motivation. At first though, I actually threw my [00:21:30] horseshoes in the back of the closet. I said, I'm not going to pitch.

[00:21:33] And then I got the horseshoe magazine several weeks later and I said, you know what, I'm going to try the turn. And it was really almost on the spur of the moment. I just decided to try the turn. I would have a totally new challenge because I love challenges. I would meet new people because I would play in the bottom classes again.

[00:21:53] Everything about it seemed fun, but I went right back to Class A and I [00:22:00] actually did better with the turn right away than I did with the flip. 

[00:22:04] Katya Rucker: Wow. Yeah. So it really is relearning -- you're doing something completely different with your wrist. Everything is different with the turn. 

[00:22:15] Debby Michaud: Actually the only thing that was really different for me was where I held it. It's really not that different and people are frightened to death of changing, but it was really, I say that I wasted 15 years [00:22:30] with a flip because I obviously probably should've been pitching the turn the whole time. 

[00:22:35] Katya Rucker: As she reflected on the two world tournaments she won, Debby told me that the similarity between the two was that both were extreme long shots for her. In the first, she had torn the ligaments in her foot that spring, and she only had three weeks to practice after recovering. And in the second, she had recently switched from the flip to the turn. So, she was relaxed and felt no pressure to win. And yet, [00:23:00] she did win both of them. And in other years that she was more at the top of her game, she did well -- even came in second in one -- but she wasn't able to take the title. As we neared the end of our conversation, one of my last questions for Debby was, what differentiates a great horseshoe pitcher from a good horseshoe pitcher? 

[00:23:20] Debby Michaud: Um, I always tell people that when they reach 50%, after that, it’s all mental, and that it is the ability to focus, to shut everything else, to do the exact same thing [00:23:30] every single time.

[00:23:31] One of the reasons I told you I won the second world tournament, uh -- I was still new at the turn, and so every single shoe, I said, you know, I went through like, two or three steps with every single shoe because I had to, because if I didn't, I still could throw a flip without knowing it. Um, and I think that is what you need to do. It can't become second nature. It has to be something that you focus [00:24:00] on something, even if it's just to relax your shoulders. You have to focus. And the great ones have a lot of natural ability in focusing and keeping things tuned out. The rest of us have to hope that it comes some days and other days it might not.

[00:24:18] Katya Rucker: And it sounds like you had it too, you know, I would not -- 

[00:24:25] Debby Michaud: Well, yeah, Walter Ray Williams said, “If Debby's got that look in her eye, forget it.” [laughing] [00:24:30] But I didn't always have the look in my eye, I mean, you need confidence. You need all kinds of it.

[00:24:39] Katya Rucker: Walter Ray Williams is one of the biggest names in horseshoe pitching, with six men's world horseshoe pitching titles under his belt. So you can take his word for it that Debby was at her most dangerous when she got that certain look in her eye. 

And that's a wrap for season 1 of I'd Rather Be. I'd like to thank [00:25:00] Tammy Gilbert and Debby Michaud for being a part of the show and telling us all about the sport of horseshoe pitching. If they've convinced you to give the sport a try, check out horseshoepitching.com for information about opportunities to play in your state. And stay tuned for the season 2 trailer, which comes out later this month. Make sure you hit the follow or subscribe button in Apple, Spotify, or wherever you're listening so you get a notification when that trailer comes out. [00:25:30] This episode was hosted, produced and edited by me, Katya Rucker. Show notes and the full transcript for this episode can be found at idratherbepodcast.com. Have a great week, and thanks for listening.