I’d Rather Be Baking Cookies

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Erik Sayce: Really, what you're looking for is this, this key moment that if you're patient and you wait for it, the shine of the cookie will start to go away and you'll just start to see these cracks forming. And that's the moment that you want to pull them out because they'll keep baking a little bit. You want to put them out and let them cool, let them rest. But that is the moment where you kill the cookie game. [00:00:30] You can take it to the bank.

[00:00:36] Katya Rucker: Welcome to I'd Rather Be Baking Cookies, episode nine of the I'd Rather Be podcast. I'm your host, Katya Rucker. This is a show about hobbies that have become full-blown passions for my guests. And it's such a privilege to be able to tap into this passion and experience the thing, in this case, baking cookies, through their eyes. 

[00:01:00] Sometimes I also talk to subject-matter experts to get a deeper dive into the technical side of whichever activity is featured in the episode. The voice you just heard was Erik Sayce, and Erik and his wife Jen are the founders and owners of a locally beloved cookie shop called Goodnight Fatty in Salem, Massachusetts.

[00:01:19] Erik has a lot to share about how to bake the perfect cookie and even the perfect vegan cookie that he and Jen's customers usually have no idea is vegan. 

[00:01:30] But now, I want introduce Kendra Beltran, our guest who loves nothing more than baking cookies in her own kitchen. Kendra is a freelance writer, blogger, host of her own podcast, and a proud dog mom. And her path to discovering her passion for baking cookies was as full of unexpected events as the journeys of many of the other guests who have shared their stories on I’d Rather Be.

[00:01:55] Kendra Beltran: Well, it all started when my husband, he was diagnosed with cancer in [00:02:00] January 2017. And before that, when we first started dating, he basically only watches Food Network and sports. So when football season isn't on, it's all Guy Fieri and all those cooking shows like Chopped, so I got kind of interested. I was picking up a few notes, but once he was done with cancer, he got over it, we wanted to thank the nurses and doctors that December during the holidays. So I was like, oh, we'll just make them cookies. And they were so [00:02:30] well received that we kind of kept doing it every year. We did it again on like, the one-year anniversary of his stem cell transplant.

[00:02:37] We did it again that fall, or that winter, and then he went back to work in like the fall of 2018, and I was like, well, you know, he's back at work, I guess I'll cook the dinners and everything since I work from home, I guess I could do this. So I started cooking more and baking more, and from there, I just was like, [00:03:00] I think I'm a natural at this, which I've never been at anything except like watching TV, so I was like, let's keep this going. 

[00:03:08] Katya Rucker: Almost a year of cancer treatments is a long time, so Kendra and her husband really got to know the members of their hospital staff, from the front desk admins to the nurses, doctors, and other technicians who supported his care. I asked Kendra how the staff reacted when she and her husband walked in with their very first cookie delivery.

[00:03:28] Kendra Beltran: We did, like I [00:03:30] remember the signature cookie was a cookie his mom often sends us -- it's a peanut butter blossom. So, the peanut butter cookie with the little Hershey kiss in the center. And it was her recipe and we just like, re-created it. She sent it to us. And I remember like, his main oncologist being like, “Oh my God, where is this from?”

[00:03:49] And I think his mom just took it from like, a box back in the day. Like, I don't think this is some family secret, so it's like on the internet probably, but she's like, “I just, I have tried to make these [00:04:00] and they do not come out this good.” So it felt kind of like, great that like this, you know, she's a freaking oncologist, she’s been to, you know, med school and everything. She's like super smart and she can't figure out cookies, but I can, so I felt kind of good about it. 

[00:04:15] Katya Rucker: After discovering her talent for making great-tasting cookies, Kendra continued to bake them for her husband's former care team twice a year. And she tells me that the front desk staff would always perk up every time she and her husband walked through the door carrying boxes.[00:04:30] 

[00:04:30] And now that she's several years into discovering this passion, I wanted to know what kept Kendra so devoted to the craft of baking cookies. 

[00:04:38] Kendra Beltran: Baking is more -- I think you could share it more. You can make a pasta, yeah, but it's like not, you're not going to take that out and about, and like, spread pasta everywhere.

[00:04:49] Cookies are portable and they just make you happy, especially -- they’re sweets, who is denying a sweet? I love savory, but a sweet just makes you -- and it [00:05:00] takes you back to childhood too. You're always like, oh, a bunch of cookies. Yay. I like that part.

[00:05:04] Katya Rucker: No, I agree. Very shareable. 

[00:05:07] Kendra Beltran: Puts a smile on people's faces. Plus I think there's, we've stepped away from, I think back, like maybe not my mom, but maybe my grandma's time baking -- [00:05:17] that was such a big thing to do in neighborhoods, and like communal, and I think it takes people back to that time as well. Like sharing, like people, you know, when you move to a new town, you take people like casseroles or [00:05:30] whatever. We actually baked our new neighbors cookies for Christmas to introduce ourselves.

[00:05:36] And some -- we were met with a lot of various reactions. One woman -- we knocked, she opened the door, she knew someone was going to be there. And then she screamed. And I was like, oh, why? Like you knew someone would be at the door. One woman almost cried. She was really excited. She said, she's like, “Oh my God, no neighbor has ever given me [00:06:00] anything.”

[00:06:01] And then we got one woman who was kind of like, skeptical of it, like she gave us this look and now every time we see her, we're just like scared of her. 

[00:06:11] Katya Rucker: It was sad to hear that some of Kendra's neighbors' reactions to being presented with homemade cookies were anything but positive, and Kendra and I talked about how so much isolation from the pandemic has made social interactions with people we don't know more fraught with this fearfulness and suspicion. But even before the pandemic, [00:06:30] relationships with neighbors had become less close-knit than they were 50 years ago. According to data from the Pew Research Center, in the year 1974, 61% of Americans surveyed said they would spend a social evening with someone in their neighborhood at least once a month. And in 2014, that number had declined to 46% of respondents. In one of the most recent general social surveys conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago, about a third of Americans say [00:07:00] they've never interacted with their neighbors. 

Given all this, Kendra's passion for baking cookies is clearly playing a small but important role in making her community just a little more neighborly. And it made me realize how easy it would be for me to take a similar gesture in my own neighborhood.

[00:07:16] Erik brings the different lens of a local business owner, but his experience over the past few years, bringing people together over freshly baked cookies, illustrated to me how much power there is in nurturing these neighborly connections over time.

[00:07:30] Erik Sayce: You know, you really get to meet your regulars and you start to learn more about them as people and their hobbies or interests. And then, you know, you start to notice when they don't come and you reach out and you're like, “Hey, did we do something wrong?” And you find out that there's some personal thing happening in their life and that's, what's been keeping them from coming.

[00:07:49] And, uh, you know, it goes -- organically gets deeper without really trying. It's pretty effortless. 

[00:07:57] Katya Rucker: Erik also described the universal [00:08:00] experience that goes along with enjoying a freshly baked cookie, which of course seems to only strengthen the relationships we've heard about so far, from the hospital staff, to Kendra's neighbors, to the loyal customers of a locally owned cookie shop.

[00:08:13] Erik Sayce: When you bite into that freshly baked cookie, there's nothing that can compete with that. I mean, there's this ephemeral moment that just, it hits all the right senses and [00:08:30] it brings you back to childhood. And this is like before the sugar high hits, then it's, you know, that's an added bonus.

[00:08:34] Katya Rucker: I think most of us would agree from personal experience that homemade cookies bring a lot of pleasure to their recipients.

[00:08:43] But what about for the baker? Kendra's passion isn't eating her cookies after all, it's baking. So let's hear what she loves so much about the process, or to use a common cliche, what she loves about the journey rather than the destination.  

[00:08:58] Kendra Beltran: I think, being like, anxious, [00:09:00] especially when my husband was diagnosed, I was very anxious. I was anxious before that. And what baking does, it takes a lot of patience and concentration. So it lets you zone in on something and just put all your energy into it. So it's helped me a lot with anxiety, and there's an author Roxane Gay. I remember in her book, Hunger, she talks about cooking helping her with her anxiety.

[00:09:23] I was like, okay, maybe that's it. It's about like, being able to control at least one aspect of your day. [00:09:30] And I feel like if you have a little bit of anxiety, maybe just get in the kitchen and see what happens, and plus it can never go wrong. It might taste bad, but you can always start over. That's the best part.

[00:09:40] Katya Rucker: I can see how baking is the perfect antidote to anxiety. As Kendra said, it takes a lot of concentration, but it's also low-stakes. So mistakes don't need to become a source of stress. Kendra went on to share a little more about how her personality is especially well-suited to a passion for baking cookies.

[00:09:59] Kendra Beltran: Well, even like, [00:10:00] as a kid, I was very organized. Um, I was like a little honors student, so nerd, so I love the whole, like getting all the ingredients together. It's soothing to just get to measure everything out, have it ready, have it all ready to go. You just get really zen, and then just mix it all together, seeing it come together, you’re like -- it’s like a sigh of relief when it starts to all unfold. And then when it's done, you just are like, elated that you did it. You're like, yay. I accomplished something today. 

[00:10:29] Katya Rucker: Kendra’s husband [00:10:30] noticed how much joy she was getting out of learning to bake. So for her birthday last year, he got her a 30-day virtual baking class offered by Christina Tosi, the creator of Milk Bar, and that's a bakery that's famous for Tosi’s layered birthday cakes that have no frosting on the side. A lot of people know about Milk Bar because Tosi was featured in an episode of Chef's Table on Netflix. 

[00:10:52] Kendra Beltran: So he got me that, so for 30 days, I learned to bake not only like a signature Milk Bar, cookie, pie, and cake, but also [00:11:00] how to come up with my own recipe and create my own flavor story, which has been really cool. So I got to implement that as I've gone along.

[00:11:09] Katya Rucker: Kendra went on to share some of the other things she's been doing to advance her cookie baking skills.

[00:11:13] Kendra Beltran: And also just reading recipes -- not, I am one of those people, I do not want to hear your life story when I go to your website to see a recipe. I want to just see the recipe. That's one of my pet peeves of baking. And so like, reading, like Sally's Baking [00:11:30] Addiction over the past couple of years has helped me a lot. She's one of the most amazing, like recipe-makers out there. So, just keeping on reading, and watching shows like Kids Baking Championship, Holiday Baking Championship, and Spring Baking Championship and watching like, people from Home Bakers, I mean, and literal children just like, bake. You learn a lot just watching people too. 

[00:11:53] Katya Rucker: Kendra mentioned that during that 30-day virtual course with Christina Tosi, one of the big assignments was to come up with [00:12:00] her own recipe and flavor story. This flavor story is supposed to come from either a meal you love or a memory that makes you happy, and from there, you create your own recipe from scratch. Kendra's favorite meal is breakfast, so she decided to create a cinnamon toast crunch blueberry cookie. It sounded delicious, but perfecting it was no easy task, it turned out. This is what Kendra said when I asked her to tell me about a cookie that challenged and stretched her baking skills the most.

[00:12:30] Kendra Beltran: I think it was the cinnamon toast crunch uh, blueberry cookie, because at first, like Christina Tosi works a lot with marshmallow. I do not like that ingredient. And I was like, well, marshmallow is going to make it creamy in my blueberry thing. I'm -- let me try it. Let me try it out. I hate how marshmallows bake in cookies. I hate how they get stuck on the parchment paper. So, a lot of trial and error with that, but I will say when you do -- I learned in that class, when you do cookies, always test the one [00:13:00] first, so you can get your temperature right and go back and adjust all that. Especially if you have a wonky oven. But so the trial and error of that is just like the ingredients and what kind of goes well, cause you -- I think everyone thinks, oh, the more, the better in a cookie, how can you go wrong?

[00:13:16] But sometimes that's not it, like I learned cinnamon toast crunch maybe doesn't work as well in bigger pieces. So I ground them up and put them in with the flour and used it as chunks because they get kind of weird, so just things like that.

[00:13:30] Katya Rucker: Erik had very similar feedback when I asked him about how mix-ins or ingredients aside from the base dough could impact how a cookie will turn out. And like Kendra, he spared no love for marshmallows. 

[00:13:42] Erik Sayce: I definitely don't think that the mix-ins are going to impact the dough, but that always comes back to bite me because they do. So basically, you know, if you put too much, say like marshmallow is a killer, it's a cookie killer. So if you put too much marshmallow in, it starts to fall.

[00:13:56] We made a honey cookie one time and I just dumped a bunch of honey in. [00:14:00] It's not, it's not a good outcome, but, uh, I think it really depends on what you're trying to go for. So like, if you're trying to go for more cakey cookies or, um, flat cookies, so, you know, different efforts in the baking process produce different results.

[00:14:16] And you know, if you want basically some cookie with your mix-ins, in other words, like you make a really chock-full cookie, it loses a lot of its integrity and it starts to break apart. So like, you just got to think of like, flour and [00:14:30] egg is the glue. It's like your papier-mache of baking. So if your, your mix-ins are kind of getting in the way of that bond, they just start to fall apart and, uh, lose their form. 

[00:14:41] Katya Rucker: Erik and his wife's cookie shop, Goodnight Fatty, is open just on the weekends, Friday through Sunday, and they have an ever-changing menu of three cookie flavors a week. So given that he and Jen have years of experimentation with different ingredients to draw upon, I asked him for some general guidelines, or do's and [00:15:00] don'ts when it comes to mix-ins flavors and toppings. 

[00:15:03] Erik Sayce: Less is more, I think in a lot of instances, like some classic, uh, secret recipe is a little like, a little coffee grinds. You throw a little coffee grinds into the cookie, not too much, but just a little bit. That could really change the complexity of the flavor. Um, some cinnamon can also really kind of give it a lot of kick, but also quickly dry it out. So you gotta use those sparingly.

[00:15:24] Um, but I'm a big fan of putting [00:15:30] the ingredients that you don't suspect in. And so, I mean, like every week we make new cookies and you know, this all started for us by quite literally like walking up and down the food aisle, wondering what a cookie would taste like with that in it. So the cookie -- cookies really just become a vehicle for smashing other things inside of it and then presenting it.

[00:15:50] So it's really just a great presentation to, to try to marry some flavors together. I mean, really, there's nothing you can't do. 

[00:15:59] Katya Rucker: [00:16:00] Well, it sounds like the sky's the limit when it comes to concocting a creative homemade cookie, but just because you can put anything in a cookie doesn't mean the majority of people will jump on board with it. Here's what Erik told me when I asked if anything they've tried, has performed surprisingly poorly. 

[00:16:17] Erik Sayce: Yeah, for sure. Like nuts. People don't like nuts. And I'm sure like the people that are listening right now that like nuts are talking about how crazy that is, but the majority of people will -- and the vast majority -- [00:16:30] will choose to not indulge in nuts when given that option. One time we made a cookie as an experiment, uh, we made a macadamia nut cookie. Macadamia nuts are notoriously expensive. Also hard to source in bulk. And we had just a, uh, A-B split test, like pick macadamia nut or white chocolate, which one do you want? Um, and resoundingly people avoided the macadamia nut.

[00:16:56] So we were bending over backwards trying to find, you know, [00:17:00] hazelnuts and macadamia nuts, and like really bringing that to the table. Um, and it turns out nuts are just a turnoff for the vast majority of people. 

[00:17:09] Katya Rucker: I couldn't find many authoritative online sources for popularity rankings of types of cookies. But unless you count the ingredient peanut butter in the nuts category, I found what Erik said to be true. None of the top 10 lists that came from a quick search contained a nut-forward cookie recipe. I also want to hear from [00:17:30] Kendra about how she comes up with new recipes to try, as I can imagine that a big part of the passion of baking cookies is the satisfaction of getting a brand new kind to come out exactly right.

[00:17:39] Kendra Beltran: I'm a classic -- I love chocolate chips and I think white chocolate chips need to be used a lot more. They're under-appreciated in the chip realm. 

[00:17:50] Katya Rucker: Why is that? 

[00:17:51] Kendra Beltran: I think everyone goes with that classic chocolate chip, and they think, you know, white chocolate chip is for something else. But I think you can mix the two. If you do a butter-based [00:18:00] cookie white chocolate chips are so good, it makes them so creamy. I've done this like, blueberry lemon one with the white chocolate chip. So good.

[00:18:07] Katya Rucker: So from what I'm hearing, there aren't hard and fast rules about what you can put in a cookie. But you have to be open to the possibility that some ideas won't work out as planned, which of course is an important mindset to have when doing anything creative.

[00:18:22] But Kendra had a suggestion for keeping the possible damage more contained. 

[00:18:26] Kendra Beltran: You just never know til you try, so always do a test cookie, you can [00:18:30] actually -- don't put your mix-ins, make your dough, and then you can take little pieces of your dough, kind of just like put the ingredients in by hand and like, you know, roll them up in your hand, and then do that instead of putting everything in and then being like, ah crap, that didn't work. Now I have to start all over. 

[00:18:47] Katya Rucker: A test cookie. Such a simple, yet great idea. Since most cookies, take what? 10, 12 minutes to bake? Experimentation and an open mind are really the name of the game when it comes to cookies, a sentiment that [00:19:00] Erik echoed when he told me about the challenge of inventing a vegan cookie that the masses would love.

[00:19:05] Erik Sayce: I don't think that there's any cookies that aren't worth trying to make. So if you can think it up, I think it's worth trying to make that cookie. Um, I think that there's definitely some challenges. Like for instance, we make vegan cookies and we've always had a hard and fast rule that if you can tell it's vegan, or if you're using the fact that it's vegan as an excuse for it not being very good, [00:19:30] then it's not a cookie that we serve.

[00:19:32] So we worked really hard for a long time, trying to figure out how to make vegan cookies, um, because you have to remember that, last time I checked, vegans represent less than 2% of the market and, you know, 2% is a big market in the big scheme of things, but maybe not for our little company. So when we come up with a vegan cookie, which is definitely something we believe in and we want to support, it has [00:20:00] to be appealing to the masses.

[00:20:02] And even when you add the word vegan, it can be a turnoff for people to even, you know, deter themselves from trying it. So we often don't even advertise um, that something is vegan. We use the term animal-free when we do in our description. Um, but, our vegan cookies -- you'd be hard pressed to -- they're generally the best ones.

[00:20:23] And, you know, people are always shocked to find out that they're vegan. Um, I think that they think that vegan [00:20:30] implies healthy. There's nothing healthy about anything that we're putting in these. So there's no, there's no, uh, redeeming qualities or, uh,  botanicals of health in there, but definitely just as good, if not better than anything else we’re offering. 

[00:20:48] Katya Rucker: Erik was willing to share the two essential ingredients his cookie shop uses to make these deceptively delicious vegan cookies: vegetable shortening in lieu of butter, and coconut [00:21:00] yogurt as the binder in lieu of eggs. Beyond ingredients, both Erik and Kendra added a word of caution about the importance of knowing your own oven and ensuring that temperature remains as consistent as possible throughout the baking process.

[00:21:14] Erik Sayce: You know, there's only two things that go into making a cookie. It's time and contact. It's contact with the heat and how long it's been in the oven for. So those are the two variables that you're playing with. So for instance, you know you're going to get [00:21:30] different results from batches, from the first batch of the second batch if the oven temperature was different, or if you leave the oven door open too long. So you have to keep in mind that like preheating and keeping the oven, um, at a consistent temperature is critical to creating consistent results. You know, even from recipe to recipe, you know, there's some environmental elements at play too.

[00:21:49] Uh, cooling is a critical component of, you know, before you try the cookie. But really it's time and contact. So the best tip I could give anyone who wants to [00:22:00] dive into this is: watch the cookie. So basically everyone's oven is different. So if you're reading a recipe, you can really throw that time right out the window, because there's, you know, when a cookie starts to caramelize and the sugar starts firing off. there's this thing called, I believe it's called the maillard reaction, which is this phenomenon that when you can smell the cookie, that's when the caramelization is happening, and that's when your cookie is done. 

So when you're like, just sitting back and your cookies are in the [00:22:30] oven, or you're watching TV or something like that, and you can smell them, that's when you go watch for them. So you want to look in and you want to basically keep an eye. You want to see like a nice doming shape on your cookie. You want to see no shadows, meaning like raw dough presents like a shadow. And really what you're looking for is this, this key moment that if you're patient, and you wait for it, the shine of the cookie will start to go away and you'll just start to see these cracks forming. And that's the moment that you want to pull them out, [00:23:00] because they'll keep baking a little bit. You want to put them out and let them cool. Let them rest. You know, you don't want to put them in like the fridge or something.

[00:23:06] There's no benefit to having them cool quickly, but that is the moment where you kill the cookie game. You could take it to the bank.

[00:23:14] Katya Rucker: Kudos to Erik for making the period of waiting for your cookies to be ready sound more suspenseful than a thriller movie. I think what made it most exciting is that you have to learn to use your senses and even your intuition, rather than a kitchen timer, [00:23:30] to know the exact right time to pull your cookies out of the oven.

[00:23:34] Of course, following recipes is still the best way to learn up until the point that the cookies go in the oven. So here's what Kendra had to say when I asked her for tips about picking a recipe to try for the first time. 

[00:23:46] Kendra Beltran: I think go with something that you like to eat, find the recipe online and just read it through a few times. I always think it's the best thing if you just don't print it out, but you actually physically write down the recipe, so you can like, kind of [00:24:00] get it in your head what you need. And again, always be organized with your ingredients. Don't think you could do it as you go along. You're going to miss an egg. You're going to -- You're going to mix up the baking powder and the baking soda. Trust me, I've done it. So just get to know your ingredients beforehand and always like. it's baking. Just have fun with it. 

[00:24:18] Katya Rucker: And a final note about one thing she wished she learned a little earlier as she started getting serious about this passion for baking cookies.

[00:24:27] Kendra Beltran: My biggest thing that I wish I knew is how [00:24:30] long it takes butter to soften. You never want melted butter and you never want really cold butter. So definitely if you're going to start baking, take that butter out the night before or a few hours. Cause it definitely just has to be room-temperature soft.

[00:24:43] Katya Rucker: Having room temperature butter requires either planning in advance or patience. So I wanted to double-check the safety of leaving butter out all the time. And here's what I found. First, salted butter will last longer at room temperature than unsalted butter. And second, avoiding [00:25:00] exposure to light and air will make room temperature butter last longer. So, storing it in an airtight container or butter dish will help.

While the USDA recommends leaving butter out at room temperature for only two days, most sources say that salted butter kept in the right container can stay fresh for up to two weeks. So that's that.

As Kendra and I reached the end of our conversation, I asked her my favorite question to ask every guest on I'd Rather Be, which is, what life lessons [00:25:30] has this passion taught you? 

[00:25:31] Kendra Beltran: It taught me that it's never too late to find something new about yourself. I mean, I grew up just eating like, Kraft Mac and Cheese. I didn't even know how to make it though. Like I still, to this day, I can't make you a box of Kraft Mac and Cheese. I switched to Velveeta cause it's easier. And like, eating microwave food and fast food. I didn't eat like, again, I didn't cook until my husband needed me to, so yeah, you can never, It's never too late to learn something and actually be good at it. Some people think [00:26:00] once you hit a certain age, it's like nah, all your skills are out the window.

[00:26:04] So yeah, just like that, like you could pick it up. And plus on those Food Network shows, it's kind of inspiring to see people who are like, oh, I had a corporate job, and then at like 45, I quit and I went to culinary school. So it's kinda like cooking can always be there for you and you need it. Cause you gotta eat.

[00:26:26] Katya Rucker: I'd like to thank both Kendra and Erik for coming onto the [00:26:30] show to chat about the delicious craft of baking cookies. Erik said a little earlier that he doesn't think there are any cookies that aren't worth trying to make and true to his word, he sent me a picture of a Cheetos Puffs-flavored cookie that actually made it onto one of Goodnight Fatty’s weekend menus.

[00:26:47] He told me that it was awesome, but the world just wasn't ready for it. You can see a picture of the Cheetos Puffs cookie, along with a few of Kendra's beautiful homemade creations, on the I'd Rather Be [00:27:00] Podcast Instagram. If you enjoyed this episode, the best way you can help the show grow is by recommending it to friends, family, and colleagues, because these personal recommendations are how most people discover new podcasts.

[00:27:15] I'd Rather Be as available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and over a dozen other podcast platforms. This episode was hosted, produced and edited by me, Katya Rucker. Show notes can be found at idratherbepodcast.com. [00:27:30] Have a great week, and thanks for listening.